DUP’s leader resigns after 3 weeks - Off topic - Mojacar forum - Costa de Almería forum in the Almeria province of Spain
Mini Digger Almera
Grupo Platinum Estates
ASSSA Insurance
DELMURJ SL
UK DIRECT REMOVALS
Have Tools Will Travel

Join the Mojacar forum

Join the Mojacar forumMy name's Alex and this is my website all about Mojacar in Spain. Register now for free to talk about Off topic and much more!

DUP’s leader resigns after 3 weeks - Page 3

Chrisp

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:08pm

Posts: 39

11 helpful points

Location: Vera

Joined: 3 Apr 2019

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:08pm

Andymac1951 wrote on Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:51pm:

An alternative view on the NI Protocol

The Northern Ireland Protocol is not, as is often made out, a set of clear and unambiguous rules, but a set of contradictory objectives. It aims to keep the North/South border open, but also, secure. To achieve that, it introduces oversight on the East/West border, while maintaining the...

... UK’s territorial integrity (Article 1) and its single customs territory (Article 4).

Since those objectives are internally contradictory, the Protocol cannot detail precise rules and mechanisms. It doesn’t even try. The precise mechanism is left to a Joint Committee (JC). The JC’s job is to find a practical way of resolving the contradictory aims, in the least intrusive way possible. This is how it is described in the Protocol (see Article 6):

Having regard to Northern Ireland's integral place in the United Kingdom's internal market, the Union and the United Kingdom shall use their best endeavours to facilitate the trade between Northern Ireland and other parts of the United Kingdom, in accordance with applicable legislation and taking into account their respective regulatory regimes as well as the implementation thereof. The Joint Committee shall keep the application of this paragraph under constant review and shall adopt appropriate recommendations with a view to avoiding controls at the ports and airports of Northern Ireland to the extent possible.

The output of the JC is not hard law, but a series of operating rules, designed to balance conflicting objectives. Inherently, these rules develop with experience and time, and can only work within a relationship characterised by good faith.

The JC agreed that the UK would apply customs checks on East-West traffic, after a grace period. Now, as it happened, the customs facilities and processes weren’t ready in time, so the UK requested an extension. The consequences of immediately applying full customs checks were clear: there would have been food shortages in Northern Ireland. Yet the EU said “no”.

The problem is, the answer isn’t “no”. “No” is the wrong answer. Wrong as in incorrect. If the new procedures aren’t ready, “no” means restricting food supplies, which is unacceptable and contradicts the Protocol’s objective to establish the UK’s territorial integrity and single customs territory. The answer can only be “yes, provided you agree to xyz and stick to it” or “yes and screw you”. If the former, the EU can prosecute the UK (if it wants) for not adhering to xyz.

On this basis, since the EU’s “no” would (if obeyed), force a violation not only of the Protocol, but also, the Good Friday Agreement and the Act of Union and disrupt food supplies to Northern Ireland, the decision to ignore the EU’s “no”, would appear to be reasonable, proportionate, lawful and consistent with the Protocol.

Therefore, the UK hasn’t broken any law. It simply ignored the EU saying “no” to the suggestion of extending the grace period. The diktat the UK overrode, isn’t some sacrosanct article, but someone saying “no” in a committee. And if the UK had respected the EU’s “no” it would have violated a principle of law. Several laws, in fact.

What about the proposed export ban on vaccines? Well, that’s different, because unlike the UK’s actions in regard to the Protocol, that would violate some very sacrosanct principles of law.

For a start, it would override the ability for suppliers to meet their contractual commitments to their customers, thus interfering with contract law. More seriously still, it would violate the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT).

Article XI forbids any prohibition on the exportation of a product destined for the territory of another WTO member. Article XI provides an exception to allow export bans to prevent or relieve critical shortages of products essential to the exporting party. In addition, Article XX, states that nothing in the agreement can be construed to prevent measures necessary for the protection of human life and health.

But the measures being considered by the EU Commission, cannot be defended in this way. They cannot be defended (under Art XI) as measures to prevent or relieve critical shortages of products essential to the EU, if they are concerned with vaccines of which there are ample surplus supplies within the EU not being used. In that case there is no critical shortage. Nor, for the same reason, can they be defended (under Art XX) as necessary for the protection of human life and health.

Note that the EU’s proposed criterion for banning exports is that the recipient country has a “higher rate of vaccination”. It is not about relieving critical shortages at home, but about targeting countries that are ahead of the EU. The rationale for the policy is therefore nothing to do with securing critical supplies, but “we’re going to punish you for embarrassing us”.

It appears what the Commission has in mind therefore, is to ban the export of supplies which, though not needed for the protection of life and health in the EU, are needed for the continued vaccine rollout in Britain. This would be the plainest possible violation of both the letter and the spirit of international law.

It is also just the kind of blurring of the borderline between trade policy and warfare that was so beloved of the pre-war fascist regimes. It is why the post-war world established international trade rules.


A thoughtful and succinct comment and well put together arg

Jimh

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:35pm

Jimh

Original Poster

Very helpful member

Posts: 455

705 helpful points

Location: Huércal-Overa

Joined: 11 Oct 2019

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:35pm

Chrisp wrote on Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:08pm:

A thoughtful and succinct comment and well put together arg

It’s not a well made argument- it is a cut and paste from a Brexiteers view on Quora 

https://www.quora.com/Brexiteers-argue-its-ok-for-Britain-to-overrule-the-Northern-Ireland-protocol-but-not-ok-for-the-EU-to-overrule-vaccine-contracts-Why-the-inconsistency
AndyMac is not capable of such original thought but he can trawl unsubstantiated drivel from dubious sources. I’ll wait for his insults to strike now  

Andymac1951

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:49pm

Andymac1951

Very helpful member

Posts: 1127

518 helpful points

Location: Velez-Rubio

Joined: 14 Oct 2018

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:49pm

Jimh wrote on Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:35pm:

It’s not a well made argument- it is a cut and paste from a Brexiteers view on Quora 

https://www.quora.com/Brexiteers-argue-its-ok-for-Britain-to-overrule-the-Northern...

...-Ireland-protocol-but-not-ok-for-the-EU-to-overrule-vaccine-contracts-Why-the-inconsistency
AndyMac is not capable of such original thought but he can trawl unsubstantiated drivel from dubious sources. I’ll wait for his insults to strike now  

Now why the need to be so damned rude, you accuse me of insults, just re read what you have posted. For the record, I never suggested that it was my own writing, simply an alternative view, and it is a very well made argument.  But typical of Faux jim you have to get the daggers out,  What a truly sad man you are.  Go crawl back under your rock.  There is more from Barnaby, he who has worked for the EU and talks a lot of sense, more than can be said for your drivel Faux Jim.

Andymac1951

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:52pm

Andymac1951

Very helpful member

Posts: 1127

518 helpful points

Location: Velez-Rubio

Joined: 14 Oct 2018

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:52pm

Jimh wrote on Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:35pm:

It’s not a well made argument- it is a cut and paste from a Brexiteers view on Quora 

https://www.quora.com/Brexiteers-argue-its-ok-for-Britain-to-overrule-the-Northern...

...-Ireland-protocol-but-not-ok-for-the-EU-to-overrule-vaccine-contracts-Why-the-inconsistency
AndyMac is not capable of such original thought but he can trawl unsubstantiated drivel from dubious sources. I’ll wait for his insults to strike now  

PS Faux Jim, where does a French surname come into the equation -  dubois?

DarioMartin

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:20pm

DarioMartin

Legendary helpful member

Posts: 5418

6472 helpful points

Location: Vera

Joined: 16 Aug 2017

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:20pm

Jimh wrote on Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:35pm:

It’s not a well made argument- it is a cut and paste from a Brexiteers view on Quora 

https://www.quora.com/Brexiteers-argue-its-ok-for-Britain-to-overrule-the-Northern...

...-Ireland-protocol-but-not-ok-for-the-EU-to-overrule-vaccine-contracts-Why-the-inconsistency
AndyMac is not capable of such original thought but he can trawl unsubstantiated drivel from dubious sources. I’ll wait for his insults to strike now  

Haven’t read the link, but would that be Barnaby Lane by any chance?

Describes himself as an Economist, very very pro-Brexit, but his LinkedIn profile states he is working in Telecoms and nothing to do with economics.  I’ve read some of his stuff, usually well constructed, but always very biased pro-Brexit and often anti-EU (despite describing himself as “pro EU” … go figure that one)

His is just another opinion and serves really to underscore what I said about not many outside Ireland actually having a solid grasp on the division and complications of Northern Ireland.  

Advertisement - posts continue below

Jimh

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:37pm

Jimh

Original Poster

Very helpful member

Posts: 455

705 helpful points

Location: Huércal-Overa

Joined: 11 Oct 2019

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:37pm

DarioMartin wrote on Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:20pm:

Haven’t read the link, but would that be Barnaby Lane by any chance?

Describes himself as an Economist, very very pro-Brexit, but his LinkedIn profile states he is working in Telecoms and nothing to do with economics.  I’ve read some of his stuff, usually well constructed, but always very biased pro-Brexit and often anti-EU (despite describing himself as �...

...�pro EU” … go figure that one)

His is just another opinion and serves really to underscore what I said about not many outside Ireland actually having a solid grasp on the division and complications of Northern Ireland.  

Yes - It is indeed but AndyMac did not acknowledge him as the source and plagiarised the article which was a response to someone else's question. But who are we to question him as I am an 'anti-British traitor' and you are a 'coward' 😂😂😂 

devo49

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:43pm

devo49

Very helpful member

Posts: 750

767 helpful points

Location: Mojacar

Joined: 22 Aug 2018

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:43pm

Jimh wrote on Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:37pm:

Yes - It is indeed but AndyMac did not acknowledge him as the source and plagiarised the article which was a response to someone else's question. But who are we to question him as I am an 'anti-British traitor' and you are a 'coward' 😂😂😂 

Oh children ,here we go again . For gods sake find a car park last man standing buys the drinks and shake hands . Same bleeding culprits every time . What the f*** is wrong with been civil while still having a good debate . This is not debate this is like what most people hate about social media where four bullies take over a forum for slagging each other off . You have spoilt it for the bulk of ordinary civilised folk who want to ask ordinary questions and advice . I find myself just doing a private message to something rather than put myself up to open ridicule from you lot . Shame on you . John Devlin . That’s my name not Devo49 and I stand by this post 

Jimh

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:00pm

Jimh

Original Poster

Very helpful member

Posts: 455

705 helpful points

Location: Huércal-Overa

Joined: 11 Oct 2019

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:00pm

devo49 wrote on Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:43pm:

Oh children ,here we go again . For gods sake find a car park last man standing buys the drinks and shake hands . Same bleeding culprits every time . What the f*** is wrong with been civil while still having a good debate . This is not debate this is like what most people hate about social media ...

...where four bullies take over a forum for slagging each other off . You have spoilt it for the bulk of ordinary civilised folk who want to ask ordinary questions and advice . I find myself just doing a private message to something rather than put myself up to open ridicule from you lot . Shame on you . John Devlin . That’s my name not Devo49 and I stand by this post 

Your welcome to your view but AndyMac has closed two threads down and I’m sure he’ll do the same with this one. 

devo49

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:25pm

devo49

Very helpful member

Posts: 750

767 helpful points

Location: Mojacar

Joined: 22 Aug 2018

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:25pm

Jimh wrote on Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:00pm:

Your welcome to your view but AndyMac has closed two threads down and I’m sure he’ll do the same with this one. 

Why oh why just the same people , every time and the same response , not me sir he called me a name first sir . Enough be civil . Everyone is entitled to an opinion and to voice it but no need to slide into the name calling . This forum should be better than that and I hope the silent majority of followers on this forum finally speak up and say enough . We seem to have lost so many contributors . I wonder why . Keep it civil lads and we can all enjoy . 

EndEx

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:59pm

EndEx

Helpful member

Posts: 75

83 helpful points

Location: Arboleas

Joined: 24 Nov 2020

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:59pm

devo49 wrote on Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:25pm:

Why oh why just the same people , every time and the same response , not me sir he called me a name first sir . Enough be civil . Everyone is entitled to an opinion and to voice it but no need to slide into the name calling . This forum should be better than that and I hope the silent majority of...

... followers on this forum finally speak up and say enough . We seem to have lost so many contributors . I wonder why . Keep it civil lads and we can all enjoy . 

Thank christ it's not just me John, I'm quite new to this forum and you are quite correct, the same gang of back slapping amigos appear as soon as anybody challenges their opinions.  Check my earlier posts on this thread!  Interestingly, they always clock up either 2 or 3 likes to boot, sad really but they appear to get off on it, is it a status thing guys?

 'EndEx' is a British military term, I'm Steve Niland.   I'm not yet over there, hopefully September.  How about the 'Amigos' say where you are aboding and who you are so I can avoid at all costs.  I have a short fuse and would probably get arrested shortly after arrival otherwise, can't tolerate bullies.

Education counts for absolutely nothing when it's used to the detriment of others. 

Sign up for free or login to reply to this topic

Want to reply to this topic? Login or register for free to post your message:

Find more Off topic topics from a particular area:


Register for free!

Login to your account

Mini Digger Almera
Grupo Platinum Estates
ASSSA Insurance
DELMURJ SL
UK DIRECT REMOVALS
Have Tools Will Travel
Advertise your business here
Advertise your property
Help with my computer