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Post Brexit event that some proclaimed impossible?

Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 12:42pm
23 replies10 members subscribed
Bess

Bess

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Brexit Britain is set to score a massive win after French politicians voted to allow British second homeowners to stay for longer in the country following a night of turmoil for President Emmanuel Macron's immigration bill.

Following the vote, the National Assembly and Senate announced a plan that would automatically grant long-stay visas to Britons who owned property in France.

The new plan will allow Britons to spend as much of the year as they like in the country and would not count towards their 90-day limit in the Schengen area.

Before the proposed change, any Briton who entered the Schengen area could only stay for a maximum of 90 days during a 180-day period.

A decision to change the rules has come after a campaign from French politicians who had large numbers of UK-owned properties in their regions.


tony3121

Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 1:14pm

tony3121

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Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 1:14pm

its expected that the Supreme Court will block it.

Airtaine

Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 1:44pm

Airtaine

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Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 1:44pm

tony3121 wrote on Fri Dec 22, 2023 1:14pm:

its expected that the Supreme Court will block it.

no doubt the EU will have a say as well

Matthew

Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 2:41pm

Matthew

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Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 2:41pm

Brexit has failed miserably and it gets worse every day  and the UK needs to re-join the single market at least before even more damage is done. That way, likely everyone will get their precious rights to freedom of movement back. I wish the UK would wake up and think REJOIN asap.

Peterlee4

Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 5:25pm

Peterlee4

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Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 5:25pm

This will never be approved or get through the courts as it will be deemed as unconstitutional advantage to one third nation when other third nations are not allowed the same rights...another assumed gain by brexiteers that would never have been required had the UK government not been the architect of the rules way back in 2013/2014 and of course the disaster that continues to be the brexit vote...the gift that just keeps giving...😂...also how can re-gaining what you already had be classed as gaining a huge goal...🤣🤣

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DarioMartin

Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 8:28pm

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Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 8:28pm

Bess wrote on Fri Dec 22, 2023 12:42pm:

Brexit Britain is set to score a massive win after French politicians voted to allow British second homeowners to stay for longer in the country following a night of turmoil for President Emmanuel Macron's immigration bill.

Following the vote, the National Assembly and Senate announced a plan that would automatically grant long-stay visas to Britons who owned property in France....

...

The new plan will allow Britons to spend as much of the year as they like in the country and would not count towards their 90-day limit in the Schengen area.

Before the proposed change, any Briton who entered the Schengen area could only stay for a maximum of 90 days during a 180-day period.

A decision to change the rules has come after a campaign from French politicians who had large numbers of UK-owned properties in their regions.


We actually discussed this very thing on another thread - the French parliament legislating it is a bit like UK Government “legislating” that Rwanda is safe!

this legislation has many hurdles to jump before it is actually enacted, and even then there are strong beliefs that the French Constitutional Court will strike it down.

That aside, it would most definitely fall foul of the Schengen treaty to which France is a prior signatory.

chrisso50

Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2023 8:16pm

chrisso50

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Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2023 8:16pm

According to the Times, likely to be overturned by the French Constitutional Court as it breaches Schengen treaty. It’s nothing to do with Brexit.


“Britons who own second homes in France are celebrating after the French parliament agreed to allow them to stay in the country for up to six months without a visa. Many had been campaigning for a change to the existing rules, implemented after Brexit, which restrict them to 90 days in the country in every 180-day period.

“Homeowners argued that the system agreed following Britain’s departure from the EU was unfair and inequitable because French citizens are still allowed to stay in the UK for up to six months without a visa, whether they owned a property or not.

“Despite the jubilant mood, there remain reservations about how the new rules will work and when they will come into force because no date has yet been set. There are also concerns that the change could be struck out at the Constitutional Council, France’s equivalent of the Supreme Court. 

“At the moment a law has been passed. The details on how this will work will come from a Council of State. In addition, a note of caution needs to be exercised, the law could be deemed unconstitutional as it favours one group of foreigners over another.

“One option likely to be considered by the French government would be for British second-home owners to show French border police their property deeds when they enter the country.”

Chris

DarioMartin

Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2023 9:01pm

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Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2023 9:01pm

chrisso50 wrote on Sat Dec 23, 2023 8:16pm:

According to the Times, likely to be overturned by the French Constitutional Court as it breaches Schengen treaty. It’s nothing to do with Brexit.


“Britons who own second homes in France are celebrating after the French parliament agreed to allow them to stay in the country for up to six months without a visa. Many had been campaigning for a change to the existing rules, implemented after Brexit, which restrict them to 90 days in the ...

...country in every 180-day period.

“Homeowners argued that the system agreed following Britain’s departure from the EU was unfair and inequitable because French citizens are still allowed to stay in the UK for up to six months without a visa, whether they owned a property or not.

“Despite the jubilant mood, there remain reservations about how the new rules will work and when they will come into force because no date has yet been set. There are also concerns that the change could be struck out at the Constitutional Council, France’s equivalent of the Supreme Court. 

“At the moment a law has been passed. The details on how this will work will come from a Council of State. In addition, a note of caution needs to be exercised, the law could be deemed unconstitutional as it favours one group of foreigners over another.

“One option likely to be considered by the French government would be for British second-home owners to show French border police their property deeds when they enter the country.”

Chris

As you say, absolutely nothing at all to do with “Brexit”.

As I put on the other thread, I cannot understand why people are complaining about this because we have all been assured that cessation of Freedom of Movement was the democratic will of the country  and everyone knew exactly what they were voting for.

It’s unfortunate that those who voted remain have to be restricted in this way, but again, we have been assured that that is how democracy works and I am equally certain that no one who voted Brexit would be complaining about being restricted to 90 / 180 because they knew exactly what they were voting for.

Apparently.

John99andrew

Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2023 9:50pm

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Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2023 9:50pm

They have no chance

Lmj18

Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2023 10:18pm

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Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2023 10:18pm

Sorry this is a bit long’ but worth the read.

🇫🇷 FRANCE’S NEW IMMIGRATION BILL - WHAT DOES IT ACTUALLY MEAN FOR UK NATIONALS - DO THE POSITIVES OUTWEIGH THE NEGATIVES? AND WHY IS THIS RELEVANT TO US HERE IN SPAIN?

We've now started seeing articles appear (pre-emptively) celebrating the introduction of France's extremely controversial immigration law - a very small part of which is the positive news for UK nationals with property in France proposing the relaxation of the rules for short stays. There is a potential for this to positively influence a change to Spanish law for home owners who want to avoid the Schengen restriction here too, although France's immigration policy has no legal bearing on  Spain’s of course.  

But its worth bearing in mind that France's new proposal will negatively affect UK nationals living or planning to live or study in France too, making migrating and living there more difficult. 

Note that it hasn't become law yet, it may be some time before it does, and parts of the proposed law can be amended or dropped prior to that occurring. 

SO WHAT ARE THE POTENTIAL POSITIVES? 

Some extracts from an article which cover the relaxing of rules for non-resident property owners here (full article can be accessed via the link. My comments in [square brackets]). This is followed by an article underlining the problems this law will cause for UK nationals living full time in France.

"France’s immigration law, including help for British second-home owners, is been voted definitively but a few steps remain"

20 December 2023 17:05

https://www.connexionfrance.com/article/French-news/What-happens-next-for-law-to-ease-second-home-visits-to-France

By Liv Rowland

The French parliament has voted definitively to help British people come for extended stays to their French second homes more easily – but what happens next?

Last night both houses of the French parliament voted through the new immigration law, after a joint text was agreed by a mixed commission of senators and MPs.

The text of the law included – at article 1er K –  a change to French borders law, giving British people an ‘automatic’ right to visit French second homes without having to apply for this. It could work, for example, on presentation of proof of home ownership at the border.

The rule will simplify life for the many British people who have been coming for more than three months at a time but who have faced time-consuming and expensive formalities since Brexit.

Are there any final steps for this law?

The main final step for the law now is that it will go to the Conseil constitutionnel, a body which assesses new laws for compliance with the French Constitution. It can take out items it judges illegal.

Ms Berthet's parliamentary assistant, Adrien Van de Walle, said this process may take up to a month depending on whether or not it is fast-tracked.

He said the Conseil will look at the whole immigration law, including article 1er K, from several aspects including:

• Checking the article is not illegal because it contradicts the Constitution

• Checking it does not break rules on financial obligations and is not in contradiction with the other aims of the immigration bill 

Assuming all is well, the law will then be published in the Journal Officiel, and will then be final.

Will Britons be able to start coming for long stays immediately?

No, the article 1er K states the general principle of an automatic long-stay visa for Britons with French second homes but adds that a decree will have to be made by the Conseil d’Etat, setting out conditions as to how the law will be applied in practice."

[This is the actual proposed wording of Article 1er K

" Art.  L. 312-4-1.  – The long-stay visa is automatically issued to British nationals who own a second home in France.  They are therefore exempt from applying for a long-stay visa.  

[Which is then followed by]

 “The conditions of application of this article are [to be] specified by decree in the Council of State.  » ]

The Article goes on to say:

"A long-stay visa refers to the right to come to France for more than three months. It would not necessarily have to involve physical ‘proof’ such as obtaining a sticker in the passport.

Mr Van de Walle said government officials will be obliged to draft this decree to put the law into practice but there is no set period. “It can be really quick, or very long.”

SO WHAT ARE THE NEGATIVES FOR THOSE WANTING TO ACTUALLY LIVE IN FRANCE?

For UK nationals who wish to move or study in France in the future, or who already live there via a visa and need to access benefits or bring relatives to live with them, this law, if passed in its current form, will have negative effects (plus one positive effect). These are covered by the following article (edited down to parts most relevant to UK nationals, my comments in [square brackets] - full article in link at end of the extract):

"What's in France's controversial immigration law?

Parliament adopted on Tuesday night a law on immigration that was described as an 'ideological victory' by far-right leader Marine Le Pen. 

Le Monde with AFP 

Published yesterday [20/12/23] at 5:39 pm (Paris) 

France's Parliament adopted a new law on immigration Tuesday, December 19, after a compromise between President Emmanuel Macron's government and the right-wing Les Républicains party shifted the contents of the final draft rightwards. Here are the key measures in the new law.

Regularizing undocumented people

[This is a positive, not a negative, by the way - it's similar to the Arriago Social system that Spain already has for illegal workers]

The law gives prefects – local state officials with extensive administrative powers – discretion to regularize undocumented workers in short-staffed professions.

This will be a one-year residence permit, issued on a case-by-case basis, provided that the applicant has been resident in France for at least three years and has been gainfully employed for at least 12 of the last 24 months. This "experiment" will only apply until the end of 2026.

A significant change is that undocumented workers will be allowed to apply for this residence permit without their employer's approval.

The governing coalition resigned itself to a more restrictive version than what was in the initial bill, with plans for broader regularizations.

Migration quotas

[Reduction of number of visas issued or a tightening of the requirements to qualify]

The law creates "quotas" – which will be set by Parliament – to cap "for the next three years" the number of foreigners admitted to the country (excluding asylum seekers).

The measure is considered unconstitutional by the governing coalition. It nonetheless accepted to include it in the compromise bill in order to satisfy LR's demands, while hoping the Constitutional Council would strike it down.

Jus soli

Jus soli, the right to obtain French citizenship from being born in France, has been restricted. People born in France to foreign parents will no longer be automatically granted French nationality upon reaching the age of majority. They will now have to apply for it between the ages of 16 and 18.

Foreigners born in France who are convicted of a crime will not be allowed to obtain French citizenship.

[Therefore making it harder for those UK nationals born in France to retain their EU citizenship]

Offence of illegal residence

The law reinstates an "offence of illegal residence," which was abolished in 2012. The measure is punishable by a fine, but no imprisonment.

[potentially troublesome for those UK nationals who didn't regularise their residency in 2021 - it was obligatory in France to register before July 2021 to get withdrawal agreement residency, this staying on without registering will now be classed as being there illegally]

Family reunification

The conditions for family reunification are made tougher. Applicants must now have resided in France for 24 months (compared with 18 previously), and must be able to show they have "stable, regular and sufficient" resources and health insurance, and their spouse must be at least 21 (instead of 18).

[ the proposed change means a spouse that didn't move to France when their partner did will now have to wait 2 years before reuniting with them. (In Spain family reunification can be carried out after 12 months)]

Student deposit

With some exceptions, foreign students will have to pay a deposit when applying for a student residence permit, to cover the cost of potential "removal costs."

Full article here:

https://www.lemonde.fr/en/france/article/2023/12/20/what-s-in-france-s-controversial-immigration-law_6361995_7.html

For another article covering some of the more controversial parts of the proposed law, please see this article:

https://www.infomigrants.net/en/post/54027/french-immigration-reform-the-main-provisions-of-the-law

Full text of the proposed law here:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/dyn/16/textes/l16t0220_texte-adopte-provisoire.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwic0tHw6p-DAxWuSaQEHZnbBmYQFnoECBIQAQ&usg=AOvVaw17dUuOf5gqz8-mZ9Rev4cD..

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