Solicitors in the area - Page 2

DaveinAlbox wrote on Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:53pm:

Beware,

I have read lots of threads all praising her work. We are attempting to purchase a property where she is acting for the vendors and has insisted that a AFO is not required for this property built on rustic land which just happens now to be protected!

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We are applying for a mortgage and don't have a hope in hell of obtaining one without the AFO which we now believe wont be granted as the land is now protected, still she insists its not a requiremment.

Louise14 wrote on Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:30pm:

AFO –Asimilado Fuera de ordenación

I would agree that this is not an issue created by Mercedes or in my opinion any solicitor, as whilst this might appear to be a legal issue, an AFO is actually a requirement of a Town Hall to satisfy a law made by the Junta de Andalucía. The below is just my understanding of the situati...

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...on and a summary of different articles that I have read. A lot of this information may already be known to you and I apologise in advance if this is the case. My understanding could also be totally flawed by information that I am not aware of or a complete lack of understanding!

The Junta de Andalucía apparently made a law that all town halls must have a list of all properties and their legal status as per the Decree 2/2012, of January 10. These rules were brought in at least in part after a series of corruption scandals apparently unearthed within the Town Halls where they had illegally granting building permission on land that clearly should not be built on or was in protected areas. It is also to ensure that Properties have the correct installation of new septic tanks, permissions from road and river authorities in place and any other technical modifications to the property.

As a result of this Town Halls are now obliged to record which properties in their areas do have licenses and which don’t. Many regions have therefore brought in regulations governing properties built in rural areas either without a license from the Town Hall or built before such licenses were issued. This is apparently where the AFO comes in as an AFO will provide written confirmation by the town hall to the Junta de Andalucía in relation to the status of properties on rustic land in their area.

The amended Andalusia land regulations of 2012 say that a house built before 1975 and with its original building permit does not need an AFO,

However, they also grant power to the individual Town Halls to administrate their own urban planning. Town Halls should therefore have discretion in dealing with the actual situation of older properties, given the above if built before 1975, it could be argued that they do not need an AFO. The problem however may be if an owner wants to further renovate or extend such a property as they will then need a license to renovate which may be refused by a Town Hall if there is no Legal License for the original property? If a Town Hall insists on an AFO, then apparently it must be done. The cost of an AFO can also vary considerably from Town Hall to Town Hall.

An AFO basically means that although the construction of a property does not comply with the legal planning, the ability of  the Local Council to initiate legal proceedings to reinstate the legal order has elapsed (post 6 years) and therefore the property cannot be pulled down. Before applying for the AFO, a property owner must be sure that everything that has been built on their land has been in place for more than 6 years – this apparently even includes pergolas. The Town Hall will check on the overhead plans produced by the Junta de Andalucía to make sure this is the case and if something has not been in place for the requisite 6 years then the Town Hall may require it to be removed.

Therefore, an AFO is basically a certificate that confirms the legal status of the property as officially recognised “out of planning”. The AFO Certificate does not change the legal situation of a property. It is a legal recognition of the original illegal situation of the property with the advantage that the property can have access to the basic services

To obtain an AFO the services of an Architect are required which equals cost and therefore this responsibility passes to the current owner of the property to put the AFO in place and make its status legal. Whilst an AFO may not necessarily be legally required to buy or sell a property, (and I am not qualified to say either way) where it is not in place then problems / costs may arise in the future for any new owner as they no doubt would have to put an AFO in place at some point and at their cost (dependent upon the works required this could be quite expensive) in order for the Town Hall to comply with the law made by The Junta de Andalucía.  Future contracting of services and supplies (water and electricity) to the property may also be impacted without an AFO in place (where required) as utility companies apparently are requesting this AFO document when receiving an application for connection. In addition, town halls may also request to see an AFO certificate before giving approval for any future renovation works and issuing a renovation license.

Once an AFO certificate is granted, then there is a Declaración de Asimilado a Fuera de Ordenación (DAFO).

Therefore my understanding would be that the situation you have described of the Town Hall stating that building permission was refused for your external wall because you could not have an AFO due to the age of the house could potentially be that usually in order for a renovation license to be granted, the legal status of the property has to be in place and an AFO usually does this where there is no prior legal status, however if your property was built prior to 1975 then in line the amended Andalusia Land Regulations of 2012, your property should already have legal status and doesn’t require an AFO to rectify this therefore permission should have been granted (provided there was no other tangible objection).

The question therefore that may need to be asked of the Town Hall that if it is the case that the property predates 1975 and therefore does not require an AFO then surely it already has legal status in line with the amended Andalusia Land Regulations of 2012 and therefore this should not prevent permissions be granted for any further renovations / works that may be required. In addition, in the case of selling the property, again Is the legal status not already in place by default of being pre 1975 (I can only assume this from your statement that the Town Hall have said your property is too old) and therefore an AFO would not be required, which I am assuming is what the document that Mercedes obtained for you was for?

Jenni wrote on Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:06pm:

Wow, Louise,

I am impressed, it must have taken you ages to type all this info, and I thank you very much. I did know some of it, but not all, and it was nice to see it written in plain English. So Mercedes has been right all along, and its the estate agents lawyer that is in the wrong. I hope you dont mind b...

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...ut I have copied and paste parts to the estate agent, ( I haven;t mentioned your name).

Once again thank you for taking the time.

Kind Regards  Jenni

DaveinAlbox wrote on Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:53pm:

Beware,

I have read lots of threads all praising her work. We are attempting to purchase a property where she is acting for the vendors and has insisted that a AFO is not required for this property built on rustic land which just happens now to be protected!

Read more...

We are applying for a mortgage and don't have a hope in hell of obtaining one without the AFO which we now believe wont be granted as the land is now protected, still she insists its not a requiremment.

Louise14 wrote on Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:56pm:

Hi Jenni,

No problem at all but as stated this is just my understanding / opinion of what I have read regarding the AFO situation and I have not got a problem in you copying and pasting to the estate agent but I am not legally trained nor do I know which Town Hall is involved. I would certainly recommend y...

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...ou contacting the Town Hall to understand what they mean when they say your property is too old for an AFO (assuming built pre 1975) and how they then demonstrate you are exempt as your property already has legal status / license. In addition, if this is the case I would then raise that permission for the external wall should not have been refused on the basis the property didn't have an AFO. By challenging this, you should obtain the answers you require, and protect any future buyer who may want to complete further works on the property. 

I hope you get what you need and would be interested to hear how you progress.

Are you staying in Spain or returning to the UK.?

We are just in the process of buying a property, and fingers crossed it will be the right decision.

Take care

L

Jenni wrote on Fri Oct 23, 2020 7:48pm:

Hi Louise,

Your understanding is far greater than mine. We have been to the Oria town hall on several occasions re this matter, and they are very helpful and speak English so there is no language misunderstanding. They insist, we Cannot, not, Do Not Need, but Cannot have an AFO on this property  becaus...

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...e it is over 200 yrs old. Therefore they say there is no piece of paper they can give us stating this, and they cannot grant PPM.

With regard to the external wall, we got around that by erecting a fence.

But due to illness in the UK we do know that we will have to return to the UK at some point, we have been here 12 years. So thats when I contacted estate agents and this AFO thingy reared its ugly head again.

I will let you know when I get a reply from either lawyer or estate agents.

Have a good weekend, I hope your property purchase goes smoothly and you start living the dream.

Kind regards  Jenni

Louise14 wrote on Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:30pm:

AFO –Asimilado Fuera de ordenación

I would agree that this is not an issue created by Mercedes or in my opinion any solicitor, as whilst this might appear to be a legal issue, an AFO is actually a requirement of a Town Hall to satisfy a law made by the Junta de Andalucía. The below is just my understanding of the situati...

Read more...

...on and a summary of different articles that I have read. A lot of this information may already be known to you and I apologise in advance if this is the case. My understanding could also be totally flawed by information that I am not aware of or a complete lack of understanding!

The Junta de Andalucía apparently made a law that all town halls must have a list of all properties and their legal status as per the Decree 2/2012, of January 10. These rules were brought in at least in part after a series of corruption scandals apparently unearthed within the Town Halls where they had illegally granting building permission on land that clearly should not be built on or was in protected areas. It is also to ensure that Properties have the correct installation of new septic tanks, permissions from road and river authorities in place and any other technical modifications to the property.

As a result of this Town Halls are now obliged to record which properties in their areas do have licenses and which don’t. Many regions have therefore brought in regulations governing properties built in rural areas either without a license from the Town Hall or built before such licenses were issued. This is apparently where the AFO comes in as an AFO will provide written confirmation by the town hall to the Junta de Andalucía in relation to the status of properties on rustic land in their area.

The amended Andalusia land regulations of 2012 say that a house built before 1975 and with its original building permit does not need an AFO,

However, they also grant power to the individual Town Halls to administrate their own urban planning. Town Halls should therefore have discretion in dealing with the actual situation of older properties, given the above if built before 1975, it could be argued that they do not need an AFO. The problem however may be if an owner wants to further renovate or extend such a property as they will then need a license to renovate which may be refused by a Town Hall if there is no Legal License for the original property? If a Town Hall insists on an AFO, then apparently it must be done. The cost of an AFO can also vary considerably from Town Hall to Town Hall.

An AFO basically means that although the construction of a property does not comply with the legal planning, the ability of  the Local Council to initiate legal proceedings to reinstate the legal order has elapsed (post 6 years) and therefore the property cannot be pulled down. Before applying for the AFO, a property owner must be sure that everything that has been built on their land has been in place for more than 6 years – this apparently even includes pergolas. The Town Hall will check on the overhead plans produced by the Junta de Andalucía to make sure this is the case and if something has not been in place for the requisite 6 years then the Town Hall may require it to be removed.

Therefore, an AFO is basically a certificate that confirms the legal status of the property as officially recognised “out of planning”. The AFO Certificate does not change the legal situation of a property. It is a legal recognition of the original illegal situation of the property with the advantage that the property can have access to the basic services

To obtain an AFO the services of an Architect are required which equals cost and therefore this responsibility passes to the current owner of the property to put the AFO in place and make its status legal. Whilst an AFO may not necessarily be legally required to buy or sell a property, (and I am not qualified to say either way) where it is not in place then problems / costs may arise in the future for any new owner as they no doubt would have to put an AFO in place at some point and at their cost (dependent upon the works required this could be quite expensive) in order for the Town Hall to comply with the law made by The Junta de Andalucía.  Future contracting of services and supplies (water and electricity) to the property may also be impacted without an AFO in place (where required) as utility companies apparently are requesting this AFO document when receiving an application for connection. In addition, town halls may also request to see an AFO certificate before giving approval for any future renovation works and issuing a renovation license.

Once an AFO certificate is granted, then there is a Declaración de Asimilado a Fuera de Ordenación (DAFO).

Therefore my understanding would be that the situation you have described of the Town Hall stating that building permission was refused for your external wall because you could not have an AFO due to the age of the house could potentially be that usually in order for a renovation license to be granted, the legal status of the property has to be in place and an AFO usually does this where there is no prior legal status, however if your property was built prior to 1975 then in line the amended Andalusia Land Regulations of 2012, your property should already have legal status and doesn’t require an AFO to rectify this therefore permission should have been granted (provided there was no other tangible objection).

The question therefore that may need to be asked of the Town Hall that if it is the case that the property predates 1975 and therefore does not require an AFO then surely it already has legal status in line with the amended Andalusia Land Regulations of 2012 and therefore this should not prevent permissions be granted for any further renovations / works that may be required. In addition, in the case of selling the property, again Is the legal status not already in place by default of being pre 1975 (I can only assume this from your statement that the Town Hall have said your property is too old) and therefore an AFO would not be required, which I am assuming is what the document that Mercedes obtained for you was for?

Louise14 wrote on Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:16am:

What has your solicitor and the estate agent saiid about this? Usually the agent knows if an AFO is required and advises the seller otherwise they may never get a buyer? 

alant wrote on Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:34pm:

What are you saying the AFO is required for?

i have lived in the area for almost 29 years, been in contact with most of the soliciters in the area and never had anyone say Mercedes has not done her job corectly.